So what do you think success looks like for you?

Sonya: For us, we are looking at how communities are impacted by mining, so a success for us would be if poor communities that live next to a gold mine are actually benefiting from the mine being there, which will mean that mine working to the highest social & environmental standards such as; no pollution of their water, they have free access to the land, they are not thrown out of their homes, these are some of the real tangible benefits for us Tiffany Jewellery  being involved in this work and why we are doing it.

GV: So, who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?

Sonya: You can't ask me that; you are very naughty Tiffanyand I don't think it is a simple as that.

GV: Ok, who is darker and who is lighter then?

Sonya: I don't even think it's as easy at that, basically there are those companies who are committed to a multi-stakeholder process and there are those that are not.

GV: Can you name a few?

Sonya: Well the ones who are in the IRMA process are  Tiffany coand Anglo American and for us that commitment to work with us is very encouraging, but there is still a long, long way to go. It really is not as easy to say who are good and who are bad, it's a long and complicated process and we will see over time and there is no easy answer to this.

GV: Is IRMA only focusing on large scale mining? As I have heard nothing in this discussion about the  who are the majority around the world.

Sonya: Well, I have mentioned we are supportive of what is happening in fair trade and if you are talking about good guys vs bad guys, the work that ARM is doing with small scale mining is really, really interesting and it does offer a real alternative that will ensure traceability and CAFOD are very supportive of that process.

I do want to emphasize that the voluntary initiatives like links of londonIRMA and RJC are not going to be sufficient in and of themselves, so we will need the governments to get involved as well.

GV: Do you think this is the next evolution of the campaign, to begin to talk to the governments and get them on board?

Sonya: Well, we are already doing that to a degree by talking to our UK Government here, there are a number of UN processes that are looking at the role of business on human rights so we are doing that work, but it applies to business as a whole not exclusively to the mining industry, but time and time again the examples and case studies of bad practice are coming out of the extractive industries sector. So we are looking at it at on all levels.

Some, but I'm remaining silent on that as it's not my interview. What I am interested in though is, a lot of companies that CAFOD and No Dirty Gold talk about are stock market listed companies, and I wonder whether this is the biggest accountability that a listed company has is to its shareholders. Are you    links of londondoing anything in that area? Where are the pension funds in all this, as they are the big investors in these companies?

Sonya: Certainly, we are raising awareness Tiffany Jewelleryon financial transparency, you may of heard of , and we are members of that. That looks at publishing what is paid to governments by extractive industries to stop corruption. And one of the calls of that campaign is what are the mandatory requirements you can put to ensure disclosure of payments. So one of the ways we could work is through the stock market to require all companies that are listed; lets say in the London Exchange, to disclose their payments to overseas governments to improve transparency Tiffanyand stop corruption. So yes we are looking at some of these strategies more generally.

GV: You know this is for me is a big problem. The disconnect. Most of what we have discussed is all about the mining companies, and for the sake of this discussion we are talking about gold. Yet most of this product ends up with the jeweller, yet they are hardly ever mentioned in the discussion, in fact they are not even in the focus or in the picture. The mining industry is run by technocrats, bureaucrats, economists and engineers, they know nothing of jewellery or the high street realities as far as I can see.

Sonya: That's where some of the tradeTiffany co associations should come into play and I think that the jewellery industry should be represented in these discussions. Therefore, jewellers should be putting pressure on their Trade Associations to make sure they are being represented in these debates. This is why they exist to advance the jeweller's interests in these forums.

 Tiffany co GV: I think we all know that in real terms that does not work in practice. I remember being in Tanzania in 2006 and talking to a junior environmental minister, and he was scared as hell at challenging this multi national mining company on their environmental record because he knew if he did he would lose his job. He had the authority to inspect but knew the system would not back him if he Tiffany did so.

Sonya: Well what I would say to that is that IRMA is a voluntary initiative and voluntary processes are on their own are not going to be enough. This is in fact some of the other work that CAFOD are doing, looking at some of the more broader regulatory frameworks that need to be in place to manage some of the positive and negative impacts when big businesses operate overseas. We think we need a combination Tiffany Jewelleryof measures because you are right, developing nation governments are often in a weak position when it comes to negotiating with large companies. The power imbalance can be huge but also there are actions that they themselves take that can contribute to the negative impacts.

GV: Ok moving on, . Where are links of londonthey at on all this?

Sonya: To be honest, Greg, we have not had much dealings with the WGC. We will try to engage with individual companies and through some of these processes, but we have had no contact with them. Have you?

GV: If this is such a big issue, how is IRMA addressing the issue of physical traceability?

Sonya: Well we can only take one step Tiffany Jewellery  at a time and we think getting certification at the mine site is the crucial first step and of course the NGO's don't have all the answers here and we are looking to industry to move on this issue of traceability. As we said, it is ultimately in the interest of the industry to get traceability.

GV: That's sounds encouraging. It seems like IRMA may be a slightly more progressive step than where RJC are at currently, but a critical question is where are the politicians on this, the people Tiffany that make the rules, are they engaging, is there active political engagement here?

Sonya: As I said the process involves, NGO's, communities,Tiffany co industry, jewellers, but at the moment it does not involve politician representing any governments.

GV: Don't you think that is a critical part of a multi-stakeholder links of londonprocess? The next step in what should happen?

Sonya: I think if you have the political will of the mining companies and they want higher standards at the mine site, they are the ones who are ultimately responsible for what happens at their mine. So if we have those involved we should get a real chance at improving the mining situation.